Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 6:56 am
by Area 51%
For those of you with the aerobatic flaps/aileron set-up, do you ever find the shorter flaps inadequate?
I’m considering going with the shorter flaps because I don’t think my wife is capable of pulling full flaps with the standard set of air brakes.
I guess I should be addressing the tricycle people as a full stall landing in the tailwheel version is something of a myth. .
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 9:48 am
by Bryan Cotton
We do full stall landings by planting the tailwheel first. The shorter flaps work great. I recommend them.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 10:44 am
by daleandee
Area 51% wrote:For those of you with the aerobatic flaps/aileron set-up, do you ever find the shorter flaps inadequate?
I’m considering going with the shorter flaps because I don’t think my wife is capable of pulling full flaps with the standard set of air brakes.
I guess I should be addressing the tricycle people as a full stall landing in the tailwheel version is something of a myth. .
We were “schooled” on full stall landings about eight years ago … viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3376&p=25588&hilit=full+stall+landing#p25588
As for being able to pull full flaps, slowing the plane down helps or you could put in an electric flap actuator as some have done. Personally I like the KISS method for flaps & trim …
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 10:51 am
by Area 51%
Is there anybody out there with a tailwheel and an LRI that can verify Zero-lift when a Waiex’s tail touches?
For sure the mains are headed for terra-firma very shortly after the tail touches, but I believe it’s a matter of leverage/geometry rather than the airfoil having packed it in.
Have you ever seen an X-15 landing? I doubt they ever came close to a stalled wing, but the fuselage comes down hard enough to break at least one in half after the tail skid touches.
Shorter flaps it is here @Area 51% .
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 11:01 am
by Bryan Cotton
When you are stick full back and mains in the air, you are way on the back side where all the drag is. It is done flying pretty quickly.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 11:07 am
by Area 51%
Agreed. But a pretty hard bounce would follow with the wing that steep and the tailwheel in contact.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 11:23 am
by Onex107
The Onex had short flaps, due to the folding wing, the ailerons were the length of the outer wing. Pulling the flaps on was always a function of air speed, even with the smaller flaps. But I preferred landing with half flaps where you do more floating and could make more controlled landings. Of course that depends on your runway conditions and the wind. With higher cross winds, full flaps get you down before getting blown off the runway.
My Onex, 107, rests in a hangar in Toronto, owned now by a car collector, who is not a pilot, but is required to have an airplane in the hangar he rents. Can’t beat folding wings for not taking up much space.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 2:48 pm
by Eric W
I did the “added middle” notch of flaps on the flap detent (add a middle notch to the flaps detent that isn’t in the plans). Found I never used full flaps, just that middle setting. Also didn’t bother with pulling “first notch” then “second notch”, just pull directly to the 2nd notch and leave it.
Above 100mph, it was tough - good feedback that you’re too fast for flaps anyway.
I had the standard length flaps, and found that a “middle notch” was a good compromise between adding drag while still having a predictable cushion in ground effect without excessive float.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhWvN0vD8TU
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 3:16 pm
by Area 51%
I also had the “extra” detent in the first Waiex. Like you, I didn’t find it necessary, very often, to go the whole 30.
This Waiex I’m working on now is to be set-up so my wife can find it comfortable to fly. That means tricycle gear and flaps she can control. She was in a car accident many years ago that left her with something less than full arm strength on her left side. (No Bryan, I’m not going with the center controls).
All indications are, the aerobatic flaps should require less force to engage. But here’s the thing. Neither of us care to have the aerobatic ailerons to go along with them.
Enter "THE PLAN’.
I’m toying with the idea of a static portion of the trailing edge between the standard aileron and aerobatic flap. It will be of aileron profile and attached at both the top and bottom with the hinge that would already be in place with the standard flaps and aerobatic ailerons.
I’ve consulted with both a sloth and a hermit crab. Both have yet to give me the “thumbs up”. We’ll see how the whole thing plays out.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 3:52 pm
by Bryan Cotton
Sonerai13 wrote:I switched back and forth between standard and acro ailerons a few times a week when I was at Sonex, and never really noticed a major difference in the feel of the ailerons. They all flew, well, like a Sonex!
From:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7509
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 4:39 pm
by Kai
I have the possibility to fly both- another guy at my home field flies an ´acro´ Sonex. Compared to my own Sonex, the acro ailerons are a tad heavier in the roll- hardly noticeable, as a matter of fact. The shorter flap is somewhat lighter to extend. The big difference is the reduction of float right after the flare- the thing is much easier to set down. I wish the acro option was available when I was building.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 1:06 am
by Skippydiesel
Interesting- any other difference’s between with a standard Sonex??
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:53 am
by Area 51%
Skippydiesel wrote:Interesting- any other difference’s between with a standard Sonex??
Are you talking flight characteristics, or structure?
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 11:11 am
by N190YX
Have you considered installing an electric flap actuator? Several Sonex builders have.
Note I would think this is the same for Sonex/Waiex as for my certified airplane, the first 1/3 of flap travel adds lift, the second 2/3 adds very little additional lift (1 or 2% more) just adds drag. You obtain the slower touchdown speed only using the first 1/3 of flap travel.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 12:07 pm
by Area 51%
N190YX wrote:Have you considered installing an electric flap actuator? Several Sonex builders have.
If I weighed 160 instead of 230, there would be all manner of add-ons installed.
Just trying to keep the rate-of-climb positive here @Area 51%
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 4:42 pm
by kmacht
Sonex at one point sold retrofit kits for the acro ailerons for existing customers. If you want them it would be worth a call to see if they still do.
Keith
#554
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:10 pm
by Skippydiesel
Area 51% wrote:
Skippydiesel wrote:Interesting- any other difference’s between with a standard Sonex??
Are you talking flight characteristics, or structure?
Flight characteristics would be my main intersted, closely followed by any changes that may be required to the standard Sonex, to fit the new flap/aileron arrangement.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 7:12 pm
by Area 51%
Let’s say you have a flying Sonex/Waiex with the standard set-up.
The first order of business would be to shorten the flap which would require nothing more than relocating the outboard rib to it’s new “aerobatic” position after removing the required amount of skin.
Second, 17± rivets need to be removed inboard of the aileron hinge and an appropriate length of hinge installed.
Third, short aileron skins need to be sourced that will fill the gap between the existing standard aileron and the newly modified flap. The exact length will depend on how accurately you cut the flap skin. I will be using the leftover pieces of skins from the blanks that came in the kit. A rib on each end and a hinge-half attached the same as the aileron will allow it to be pinned at the top. Another hinge-half riveted to a filler strip will be needed to attach the appendage to the bottom hinge (original flap hinge which is already in place). The appendage will need to be rigged similar to the ailerons before riveting the filler strip to the bottom of the aileron-like filler.
My proof-of-concept piece seems quite happy. In a perfect world, there would be an adjustment screw to use these sections as trim tabs.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 4:15 pm
by DCASonex
N190YX wrote:Note I would think this is the same for Sonex/Waiex as for my certified airplane, the first 1/3 of flap travel adds lift, the second 2/3 adds very little additional lift (1 or 2% more) just adds drag. You obtain the slower touchdown speed only using the first 1/3 of flap travel.
But full long flaps deployed will allow crazy steep decent over trees near end of runway without gaining speed. Electric flap operator in A series, for me at least, means being able to keep seat and shoulder straps fully tightened.
David A.
Re: Flaps is as flaps does
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 6:25 pm
by daleandee
DCASonex wrote:But full long flaps deployed will allow crazy steep decent over trees near end of runway without gaining speed.
I’ve heard there are Sonex pilots that don’t use 30º flap because they claim it’s too steep. Power idle, full flap, and a bit of slip can get you down in a hurry. 8~)
Dale
3.0 Corvair/Tailwheel